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This is such an important topic with lots of nuance and it’s nice to see these respectful discussions on it
The thing is, if women never openly talk about the way they are treated, talked to, approached or what they have to deal with, you know what happens?
Nothing.
It just keeps continuing because silence is acceptance.
If it’s uncomfortable to hear women constantly talking about what they deal with, have you stopped to think how uncomfortable women have been and have had to dral with before they finally speak out? Especially when they are more often than not met with this “not all men” and “this isn’t kind or friendly”. No kidding. Neither is what women have been dealing with. And when a person has had their limit, the end result is usually never kind, polite or civil. It’s angry, frustrated and confrontational.
If things are uncomfortable, that’s a sign that maybe, it’s gotten too comfortable to live with these behaviors.
Change is uncomfortable. Instead of complaining about how uncomfortable it is, start helping create solutions that benefit everyone. 🤷♀️
To be honest an awful lot of men i spoke with dont go near the forums so they arent seeing these posts. These are the men who this thread probably should be targetted at.
The statistics for the abuse is 25% of women have experienced it, not 25% of men are rapist or abusive. Often a man who does such things will go on to continue those same behaviors with multiple women. The purpose in providing those statistics was to give context to the multiple men that have come into the forum to complain that women weren’t responding to them the way that they had hoped. It wasn’t to bash men. I’m fact a lot of the comments that this post is complaining about derive from responses to forum posts by men complaining about the way the women don’t respond to them the way that they would like. I would say that there is a good 50/50 split on forum posts that are initiated by men vs women and are addressing those interactions.
This is very true. The hope is that even if it isn’t reaching the guys doing these things, it does reach the woman so they know that
1) They aren’t alone
2) They aren’t the only ones experiencing these behaviors
3) It’s okay to speak out about them
4) They are being seenI honestly don’t expect men to ever change. They haven’t yet and seem to be getting worse. But we can reach out to women and let them know they are seen and supported.
“My ‘rights’ trump your feelings!” and “Men need ‘splaining!” are not collegial ways of handling the primary topics of this forum. Furthermore, they likely have zero impact on people’s behavior anyway. Report individual bad actors instead.
Perhaps the site could use a minimal code of conduct in order to help keep things on a friendly and supportive track. Pretty much all long-standing sites have these and point to them to maintain a collegial forum.
For example:
* It doesn’t need to be said, but: yes to supportive discussion about nursing, relactation, couple’s issues, etc. (elaborate friendly helpful topics)
* No discussion of politics, conspiracy theories, etc., due to how divisive and prone to trolling these topics can be. There are MANY other and better forums for these topics.
* No generalized bashing of men or women’s behavior. An individual’s bad behavior should be handled privately, e.g. by reporting to moderators.
By the way, did you know (cite: NSVRC) that:
“Nearly a quarter (24.8%) of men in the U.S. experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime.”
“43% of men reported experiencing some form of sexual harassment and/or assault in their lifetime.”
That actually includes myself – several times, in fact, including as a juvenile and as an adult. Women may still have it worse, but this is a universal problem. So anyone pushing a narrative concerning only women as victims, or only men as perpetrators, aren’t being fully honest about the reality of sexual harassment and violence.
just like guys ladies have their own type of people that like to chat with and how they communicate. Many ladies hete are very respectful and nice when you know them… there are several people that I have come to be friends with and guess what friends tell you how to improve and help… maybe you need help understanding and communicate with the community more..
there are wonderful chats that happen in the Cafe and we lean on eachother sometimes!!
Gaslighting women is not proving your point. It’s actually doing the opposite. Just an FYI
I’m gonna be honest. I didn’t read a thing in your response because from a cursory glance, it’s the same thing you’ve said at least three times now:
Not all men
Women are just as badI agree. It isn’t all men, but even one is one too many.
Yes, women are just as bad and many times worse because they embolded this not all men perspective and actively tear down other women for male approval. I’ve seen it done here, as other women in this thread have said. I think you will find most here have agreed with you, but you seem to need to have some validation, so there it is.
The problem is, the male to female ratio is extremely bloated on the male side. It would seem to me that if one wanted to keep the women who are here and attract more, one would do what they could to make sure that women are safe and secure and that the men who are risking that be dealt with.
I agree with ToT. Women need to set boundaries, enforce them, know what they want, ask questions that will quickly ascertain if the guy is a jerk or a “good one”. That is an obligation we have, but the onus shouldn’t be solely on us because men hearing our issues is “uncomfortable” and “not kind or friendly”. Yet, it is always on us women. When something happens, we bear the burden of eveything, including the man’s bad behavior. I don’t mind taking some responsibility, particularly if I didn’t do the bare minimum of due dilligence, but I end my accountability to what I can control. Anything else should fall on the other person, including lying, deceit, bad intentions and everything that goes with it. But somehow, if women complain after doing their due diligence, somehow we are being unreasonable, exaggerating, or even paranoid. How is this fair and why should women stick around if this is what we can expect?
When will this become equal? When will women be able to have the same ability to approach men without this list of things we need to do before we can move forward? With posts like yours, it sets that back even farther.
As someone who rarely makes their way onto this site, I don’t feel qualified to weigh on ABFHeaven-specific topics, so I’ll just frame the following as general social rules I try to live by:
1) Consent matters in all things and at all times.
2) Acceptance > Tolerance.
3) If you’re uncomfortable with your role in a situation: leave that situation.
4) If you suspect someone else is uncomfortable in a situation, speak up on their behalf.
5) Silence = Complacency.
6) Communication should be CLEAR, especially in a format where tone and body language aren’t available. We’re all adults here and should have no problem communicating like adults.
7) If I have to use 2,000 words to make myself so insanely clear that I can’t be misunderstood, that’s what I’ll do. Concise is nice, but Clear is better.
8) You can’t speak for anyone other than yourself. I can’t speak for all men, for example. But the flipside of that coin is that the person you’re speaking to is only the person you’re speaking to. I can’t (as an example) project my negative history of being cheated on against every potential partner I start talking with. I have to, for the sake of both my own sanity and my chances of ever meeting a worthwhile potential partner, give them the benefit of the doubt.
9) Start people off at 100% of your respect. It’s their job to maintain from there. You don’t have to forgive. You don’t have to forget. But at least let people start off with a chance of success.
10) Everyone deserves a second chance. No one deserves a third.Foxy: Don’t put words in my mouth. I have not said “women are just as bad” or anything like that. Indeed, the statistics that I quoted did not break down who the perpetrators were.
Perhaps my sensitivity to the issue is driven by my own experiences as a child and as an adult. Anyone can be assaulted, and no one deserves to be!
As I began, I’ll end with my “repetitive” point:
Certain kinds of recent posts are creating an uncomfortable and possibly hostile environment that is not in line with the putative goals of this forum.
Report abuse by individuals to the site’s operator, and otherwise, consider cooling the stereotyped, broad-stroke complaints about men. Some of us have suffered too.
I’m out of this discussion now. Have a nice day.
FoxyGoddess & Jessica, yes and yes.
I agree and I hate it. Most men just want a nice quiet life and to be loved. Society is going through a “men suck” phase at the moment and it’s gone too far. It’s probably particularly bad in a female dominated environment like this because the kind of women who are saying it want to keep men “in their place”. You won’t hear anything like that from me.
Ladies for for thought. While I understand there are definitely a bunch of bad eggs out there. And absolutely should treat you with dignity ,and respect. These posts have been quite frequent as of late. Making people who used to engage quite often want to take a step back. Feeling like one may step out of bounds or say the wrong thing. Most of the men on here probably hardly engage. Also I see women complaining about their inboxes being flooded with messages. I mean I don’t think that can be helped. As the ratio for anr/abf is like 20-1 man to women. Most men on here probably go months without getting a single mail or reply. Depending on how it’s worded of course as a crass comment, or are you lactating should be ignored or blocked. There are alot of bad guys out there. But to the extent of some of these posts Making it out to be I don’t know. Especially with some women saying they have nothing but positive experiences.
Yay!
Another guy telling women to suck it up because it makes them feel/look bad.
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